You guys seem so utterly disconnected from the common user’s perspective it’s not even funny anymore.
Expecting everyone to learn all those CLI tools and system components they may encounter… I hope you guys are also mechatronics engineers if you drive cars, botanists if you have a garden and at least intermediate chefs if you own more than the most basic kitchen.
Please go out and talk with some people who’re NOT into tech about this stuff, it’s a sobering experience.
Dude the only people expecting shit are the ones who get mad when they migrate to Linux and won’t just learn a few simple tools to make their life easier.
Your package manager commands and options and some basic tools to troubleshoot local networking are really not that fucking hard.
Your package manager commands and options and some basic tools to troubleshoot local networking are really not that fucking hard.
Who are you trying to fool, yourself or others? Setting up networking in the CLI isn’t even remotely as simple / straightforward as you make it seem for the common user. Package manager commands are reasonable, however also by far less enticing to most people than a graphical software manager that shows all information at a glance. Especially if you look for something for a certain purpose instead of a specific name.
It may seem hard at first, it’s just that people are scared of the terminal. It’s not as if widely used programs with fancy UIs aren’t also complex.
I’m understanding of people who are just using their computer for web browsing and email, but I’m directing ire towards Windows power users who just expect certain tool sets to materialize for them.
Well, I’m arguing for the common non-IT people. It’s also more often than not less about complexity, but intuitiveness paired with a lack of knowledge (which is okay, as long as it’s well designed it’s okay not to know how a clutch actually works but still wanting or needing to drive a car).
For power users the whole discussion obviously shifts as it’s reasonable to expect them having both the interest and time to learn stuff.
I think that there are more than ample options for non technical people, like Mint. I also don’t think that those users are coming to Lemmy to stir shit, so it really doesn’t make sense to me who makes these posts.
Like, are you unaware of the distribution model of FLOSS projects like Linux? Because of the lack of profit motive from selling licenses, development is funded and done by donation. Some is corporate sponsored, but not much.
When people piss and moan about the state of things, it just makes them look really foolish, because they don’t know what has gone into getting it this far.
If you don’t like the tool sets available, feel free to roll your sleeves up and organize a design team to change that.
I’m not in tech at all, I’ve just learned to use my operating system over time. It’s really not that hard & now I prefer command line sometimes b/c it’s just faster.
What’s really weird is your complete aversion to learning a new utility & your bizarre shaming of people for being knowledgeable about their tools.
What a fucking leap. CLI does not equal complexity.
If you can write and read, you can use a CLI. Can you read and write? Great, you can learn CLI cmds.
People don’t want to use CLIs because unless you’ve been using computers before windows 95, chances are that all your life you’ve been using a GUI, and humans in general don’t like changes.
Going from Windows to any Linux distro is a big enough leap, and adding a new way to interact with your tool on top of that is too much at once for the vast majority of people.
With that said, a lot of Windows issues require you to use the CLI and mess with regedit to fix them. How is that any different than asking people to run a diagnostic command to troubleshoot their PC?
You can use a Linux distro through a GUI pretty much 99.9% of the time, just like Windows. The only difference is that on Linux, the CLI is much more powerful than the GUI, so the majority of users will use the CLI to troubleshoot.
You don’t need to be into tech stuff. You can do everything in CLI that you can do in GUI (but not necessarily vice-versa). Just because you are better with visual shit doesn’t mean that either approach is “right” or “wrong.”
If I can’t be expected to remember sudo dnf update -y why would I be able to remember a whole ass recipe, or how to care for plants, or how to change my oil? There’s no GUI to tell me how much nitrogen my soil needs, I can’t be expected to learn anything!
Because a GUI conveys meaning, because humans are intrinsically better at memorizing shapes and location than some random abstract characters that do not mean anything to then unless you use them all the time. Because a System Settings panel with submenus and descriptions on their checkboxes and sliders is the manual AND the option simultaneously, small “?” with hover-over information boxes make it optimal. A GUI can go so far to turn completely red to signal dangerous settings, the CLI will happily oblige in whatever stupid command you enter. Hell, even god damn APT had NO option to warn users that they’re about to uninstall core system components until a big Youtuber like LTT had his distro blow up in his face. And STILL there were those people who tirelessly argued against a god damn warning… and colored text.
GUI is by design better at guardrailing, meanwhile in the CLI a single wrong command with sudo in front can destroy your entire OS.
I can’t fathom how this isn’t painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about this for even a moment…
And yet you expect me to be able to figure out paella or my soil PH without a GUI? I’m expected to learn what color means what on these test strips and measure ingredients with different sized spoons? This is madness!
You realize most people that dabble at gardening do not in fact know anything about that right?
Most people that dabble in gardening will kill a lot of plants, and when they do try to understand why, they’re not going to pick up a book on gardening to understand how plants work. They will search on the internet why their plant died and try random suggestions (the equivalent of running random commands on Linux) until something works, or failing that, they will more likely move to a hardier plant like a cactus (the equivalent of moving to Windows).
Sure it’s not as beautiful and is prickly, but at least it doesn’t just die.
Was I being hyperbolic for humor? Sure. But so were you (I hope ffs) comparing learning a few commands to becoming a mechanic lol.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree that having to learn how linux works to run linux is necessarily a problem. It’s been so long since I used windows now (last was w10, not like 98, still been a few years) that now I find windows harder to use than linux cli, even with its fancy schmansy GUI. I’ve never used apple or iPhone, so I know fuck all about macOS and the few times I’ve had to touch an iPhone I literally say “ugh what the fuck is this thing, hey [friend, iPhone owner], can you make this thing do the youtube for me,” but that’s because I’m too lazy to learn the UI (because I don’t want to, because walled garden so I only use it on those rare occasions and would never buy one, but I digress), “learning” is intrinsic to “new thing,” not just “linux cli.” You’re (or whoever ykwim) just not willing to do the work to switch to “new thing,” and that’s fine, it’s not for you (of course Microsoft will hide the control panel you’re used to and make you learn a new gui way to change some setting that they keep changing back every update, for instance, but at least it’s incremental I suppose.) But not everything has to be for everyone, all is good! But it isn’t because “linux hard” nor “cli bad” nor “they are too fucking dumb to learn a few commands,” it’s because they don’t want to, people want what is familiar and many think they’re done learning the second school ends.
I also barely have to touch the CLI btw (except I choose to all the time because it’s so convenient, but I don’t have to,) I could usually use the GUI, and often do for other things that are more convenient that way. Ymmv.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it btw, being a mechanic is more analogous to working with hardware, like building a gaming rig or something. Learning an OS is more like learning how to operate that hardware. At most, you’re used to automatic, you don’t want to learn how to drive stick, but it’s not that much harder, you can, you just don’t want to.
Was I being hyperbolic for humor? Sure. But so were you (I hope ffs) comparing learning a few commands to becoming a mechanic lol.
I meant more along the lines of knowing the inner workings of a car and how to modify it. But whatever, it was a bad analogy and I won’t defend it.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree that having to learn how linux works to run linux is necessarily a problem.
I don’t think that having to learn how Linux works to use it is a problem per se. I just believe that wanting widespread use while being against simplification/abstraction is an incompatible view.
“learning” is intrinsic to “new thing,” not just “linux cli.”
That’s true, but not all learning is equal. Visual and positional features can make learning things easier by creating mental connections and shortcuts, while computer languages aren’t even processed like real languages.
Moreover, a good GUI should be built with good UX in mind and help the user in the process of learning by creating and taking advantage of existing connections, the same isn’t true in a CLI, at best commands can resemble natural language, which does help, but even that has limits. For example, a GUI’s symbols are independent from language whereas a CLI’s commands aren’t, whether you’re in Japan or in the US, you know a trashcan is somewhere you discard stuff, meanwhile commands might as well be random symbol combinations for people that don’t speak english.
You’re (or whoever ykwim) just not willing to do the work to switch to “new thing,” and that’s fine, it’s not for you
I’d like to point out that I’ve used Linux in the past for 4 years (I only swapped because I didn’t bother reinstalling Mint after switching PCs. I also didn’t even have problems with the terminal actually, although I did avoid it when possible). And my experience was mildly negative, and I interacted with people that also had negative experiences with their distros (positives too, most of my friends prefer Linux), so it annoys me that when people give feedback on the Linux UX and are met with defensiveness and dismissal of their experiences while simultaneously being told by Linux fans to blindly adopt it.
But not everything has to be for everyone, all is good! But it isn’t because “linux hard” nor “cli bad” nor “they are too fucking dumb to learn a few commands,”
Once again, I’d like to point out that I never argued that.
it’s because they don’t want to, people want what is familiar and many think they’re done learning the second school ends.
I do like to counter this. People love learning and are constantly seeking new things to learn (sometimes that is misinformation, so ymmv). People just would rather learn out of passion than necessity. For a lot of people the computer is nothing more than a medium to do what they want, they don’t care about how it works nor do they want to learn. And I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view.
Btw, it’s fine if Linux just stays being a niche OS for programmers and tech enthusiasts, I just find it annoying how every time people point out that Linux and its communities can be newb unfriendly, theyr ar eoften met with: “Am I wrong? No the newbs are just too lazy”.
Lastly, I just like to point out that in this thread OP said GUI are more intuitive, to which you mentioned that gardening doesn’t have GUIs and I pointed out that gardening isn’t intuitive and people bounce off of gardening as a hobby before you launched on a tangent about people not being willing to learn new things.
You guys seem so utterly disconnected from the common user’s perspective it’s not even funny anymore. Expecting everyone to learn all those CLI tools and system components they may encounter… I hope you guys are also mechatronics engineers if you drive cars, botanists if you have a garden and at least intermediate chefs if you own more than the most basic kitchen.
Please go out and talk with some people who’re NOT into tech about this stuff, it’s a sobering experience.
Dude the only people expecting shit are the ones who get mad when they migrate to Linux and won’t just learn a few simple tools to make their life easier.
Your package manager commands and options and some basic tools to troubleshoot local networking are really not that fucking hard.
Who are you trying to fool, yourself or others? Setting up networking in the CLI isn’t even remotely as simple / straightforward as you make it seem for the common user. Package manager commands are reasonable, however also by far less enticing to most people than a graphical software manager that shows all information at a glance. Especially if you look for something for a certain purpose instead of a specific name.
It may seem hard at first, it’s just that people are scared of the terminal. It’s not as if widely used programs with fancy UIs aren’t also complex.
I’m understanding of people who are just using their computer for web browsing and email, but I’m directing ire towards Windows power users who just expect certain tool sets to materialize for them.
Well, I’m arguing for the common non-IT people. It’s also more often than not less about complexity, but intuitiveness paired with a lack of knowledge (which is okay, as long as it’s well designed it’s okay not to know how a clutch actually works but still wanting or needing to drive a car).
For power users the whole discussion obviously shifts as it’s reasonable to expect them having both the interest and time to learn stuff.
I think that there are more than ample options for non technical people, like Mint. I also don’t think that those users are coming to Lemmy to stir shit, so it really doesn’t make sense to me who makes these posts.
Like, are you unaware of the distribution model of FLOSS projects like Linux? Because of the lack of profit motive from selling licenses, development is funded and done by donation. Some is corporate sponsored, but not much.
When people piss and moan about the state of things, it just makes them look really foolish, because they don’t know what has gone into getting it this far.
If you don’t like the tool sets available, feel free to roll your sleeves up and organize a design team to change that.
I’m not in tech at all, I’ve just learned to use my operating system over time. It’s really not that hard & now I prefer command line sometimes b/c it’s just faster.
What’s really weird is your complete aversion to learning a new utility & your bizarre shaming of people for being knowledgeable about their tools.
What a fucking leap. CLI does not equal complexity.
If you can write and read, you can use a CLI. Can you read and write? Great, you can learn CLI cmds.
People don’t want to use CLIs because unless you’ve been using computers before windows 95, chances are that all your life you’ve been using a GUI, and humans in general don’t like changes.
Going from Windows to any Linux distro is a big enough leap, and adding a new way to interact with your tool on top of that is too much at once for the vast majority of people.
With that said, a lot of Windows issues require you to use the CLI and mess with regedit to fix them. How is that any different than asking people to run a diagnostic command to troubleshoot their PC?
You can use a Linux distro through a GUI pretty much 99.9% of the time, just like Windows. The only difference is that on Linux, the CLI is much more powerful than the GUI, so the majority of users will use the CLI to troubleshoot.
You don’t need to be into tech stuff. You can do everything in CLI that you can do in GUI (but not necessarily vice-versa). Just because you are better with visual shit doesn’t mean that either approach is “right” or “wrong.”
If I can’t be expected to remember
sudo dnf update -ywhy would I be able to remember a whole ass recipe, or how to care for plants, or how to change my oil? There’s no GUI to tell me how much nitrogen my soil needs, I can’t be expected to learn anything!Because a GUI conveys meaning, because humans are intrinsically better at memorizing shapes and location than some random abstract characters that do not mean anything to then unless you use them all the time. Because a System Settings panel with submenus and descriptions on their checkboxes and sliders is the manual AND the option simultaneously, small “?” with hover-over information boxes make it optimal. A GUI can go so far to turn completely red to signal dangerous settings, the CLI will happily oblige in whatever stupid command you enter. Hell, even god damn APT had NO option to warn users that they’re about to uninstall core system components until a big Youtuber like LTT had his distro blow up in his face. And STILL there were those people who tirelessly argued against a god damn warning… and colored text.
GUI is by design better at guardrailing, meanwhile in the CLI a single wrong command with sudo in front can destroy your entire OS.
I can’t fathom how this isn’t painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about this for even a moment…
And yet you expect me to be able to figure out paella or my soil PH without a GUI? I’m expected to learn what color means what on these test strips and measure ingredients with different sized spoons? This is madness!
You realize most people that dabble at gardening do not in fact know anything about that right?
Most people that dabble in gardening will kill a lot of plants, and when they do try to understand why, they’re not going to pick up a book on gardening to understand how plants work. They will search on the internet why their plant died and try random suggestions (the equivalent of running random commands on Linux) until something works, or failing that, they will more likely move to a hardier plant like a cactus (the equivalent of moving to Windows).
Sure it’s not as beautiful and is prickly, but at least it doesn’t just die.
Man that sounds an awful lot like learning, but couldn’t be, because learning is not possible!
Just give up and exclusively use iPhones lol, they’re easier.
I believe that the people in lemmy are reasonable and kind and good irl. The same I believe of you.
At no point I was aggressive or said learning is impossible. So why do you feel the need to build a scarecrow out of my comment just to push it down?
All I did was point out my experience seeing others trying to dabble in gardening and made comparisons to how users approach OSs.
Was I being hyperbolic for humor? Sure. But so were you (I hope ffs) comparing learning a few commands to becoming a mechanic lol.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree that having to learn how linux works to run linux is necessarily a problem. It’s been so long since I used windows now (last was w10, not like 98, still been a few years) that now I find windows harder to use than linux cli, even with its fancy schmansy GUI. I’ve never used apple or iPhone, so I know fuck all about macOS and the few times I’ve had to touch an iPhone I literally say “ugh what the fuck is this thing, hey [friend, iPhone owner], can you make this thing do the youtube for me,” but that’s because I’m too lazy to learn the UI (because I don’t want to, because walled garden so I only use it on those rare occasions and would never buy one, but I digress), “learning” is intrinsic to “new thing,” not just “linux cli.” You’re (or whoever ykwim) just not willing to do the work to switch to “new thing,” and that’s fine, it’s not for you (of course Microsoft will hide the control panel you’re used to and make you learn a new gui way to change some setting that they keep changing back every update, for instance, but at least it’s incremental I suppose.) But not everything has to be for everyone, all is good! But it isn’t because “linux hard” nor “cli bad” nor “they are too fucking dumb to learn a few commands,” it’s because they don’t want to, people want what is familiar and many think they’re done learning the second school ends.
I also barely have to touch the CLI btw (except I choose to all the time because it’s so convenient, but I don’t have to,) I could usually use the GUI, and often do for other things that are more convenient that way. Ymmv.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it btw, being a mechanic is more analogous to working with hardware, like building a gaming rig or something. Learning an OS is more like learning how to operate that hardware. At most, you’re used to automatic, you don’t want to learn how to drive stick, but it’s not that much harder, you can, you just don’t want to.
I meant more along the lines of knowing the inner workings of a car and how to modify it. But whatever, it was a bad analogy and I won’t defend it.
I don’t think that having to learn how Linux works to use it is a problem per se. I just believe that wanting widespread use while being against simplification/abstraction is an incompatible view.
That’s true, but not all learning is equal. Visual and positional features can make learning things easier by creating mental connections and shortcuts, while computer languages aren’t even processed like real languages.
Moreover, a good GUI should be built with good UX in mind and help the user in the process of learning by creating and taking advantage of existing connections, the same isn’t true in a CLI, at best commands can resemble natural language, which does help, but even that has limits. For example, a GUI’s symbols are independent from language whereas a CLI’s commands aren’t, whether you’re in Japan or in the US, you know a trashcan is somewhere you discard stuff, meanwhile commands might as well be random symbol combinations for people that don’t speak english.
I’d like to point out that I’ve used Linux in the past for 4 years (I only swapped because I didn’t bother reinstalling Mint after switching PCs. I also didn’t even have problems with the terminal actually, although I did avoid it when possible). And my experience was mildly negative, and I interacted with people that also had negative experiences with their distros (positives too, most of my friends prefer Linux), so it annoys me that when people give feedback on the Linux UX and are met with defensiveness and dismissal of their experiences while simultaneously being told by Linux fans to blindly adopt it.
Once again, I’d like to point out that I never argued that.
I do like to counter this. People love learning and are constantly seeking new things to learn (sometimes that is misinformation, so ymmv). People just would rather learn out of passion than necessity. For a lot of people the computer is nothing more than a medium to do what they want, they don’t care about how it works nor do they want to learn. And I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view.
Btw, it’s fine if Linux just stays being a niche OS for programmers and tech enthusiasts, I just find it annoying how every time people point out that Linux and its communities can be newb unfriendly, theyr ar eoften met with: “Am I wrong? No the newbs are just too lazy”.
Lastly, I just like to point out that in this thread OP said GUI are more intuitive, to which you mentioned that gardening doesn’t have GUIs and I pointed out that gardening isn’t intuitive and people bounce off of gardening as a hobby before you launched on a tangent about people not being willing to learn new things.