“In order to protect uptime of our glorious data centers, neighborhoods will begin experiencing rolling brownouts to reduce demand.”
- Texas soon probably.
So why is it the duty of our country to gather all electricity possible for the richest people to waste on burning out GPUs so they can lose money on free chatbots?
For the same reason housing should be a speculative investment, and healthcare services available only to the highest bidder.
Data centers need to bring their own power.
In a well regulated way that includes oversight, yes.
To a significant extent, they do, contracting for construction of generation and transmission (very often renewable), at least at the largest scale.
But, it’s (mostly) all on the grid.
With demand like that, it’s not like there isn’t significant negotiation with the local power company, especially because they’re frequently built a significant distance from existing large power infrastructure.
Heck, all the big 3 cloud providers signed deals for nuclear generation in the last few months. https://spectrum.ieee.org/nuclear-powered-data-center
Here’s just one more article about these sorts of investments: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/google-has-a-20b-plan-to-build-data-centers-and-clean-power-together
Heck, all the big 3 cloud providers signed deals for nuclear generation in the last few months. https://spectrum.ieee.org/nuclear-powered-data-center
Subsidized by US taxpayers … If data center flops, we pay hold the defaulted loan
If demand is there, microshit get cheap nuke energy and operator makes profit…
Where is the benefit to the taxpayer?
A few job and chatgpt flooding internet?!
Clown fucking world
First 0 nuclear reactors will be built anywhere in US before 2035.
Texas is actually a renewables leader because, believe it or not, it has the least corrupt grid/utility sector, and renewables are the best market solution.
Even with 24/7 datacenter needs, near site solar + 4 hour batteries is quicker to build than fossil fuel plants and long transmission, and it also allows an eventual small grid connection to both provide overnight resilience from low transmission utilization fossil fuel as peakers anywhere in the state as well as export clean energy on sunnier days.
Market solutions, despite hostile governments, can reduce fossil fuel electricity even with massive demand surge. One of the more important market effects is that reliance of mass fossil fuel electricity expansion and expensive long high capacity transmission, would ensure a high captive cost at high fuel costs because of mass use, in addtion to extorting all regular electricity consumers. Solar locks in costs forever, including potentially reducing normal consumer electricity costs.
“The least corrupt/utility sector” I must be thinking of the wrong Texas, which one are you referring too?
I think they mean “the same forces that led to the grid collapsing every few years – prioritizing profit above all else, and the government giving zero fucks-- are the same forces which trigger new development to be in renewables with zero regulation or oversight”
Conservatives always write about their broken-clock-right-twice successes in a similar way.
Compared to California, where everything is done to increase customer rates, or most other states where long wait lines to connect power occur, you can measure effective corruption by how much energy additions are made, including home solar. You can be critical of their exposure to power system failures, but that doesn’t make the system corrupt.
Your measure of corruption is what now? How many new things are built regardless of their need or what impacts they may have?
Very…unique standpoint.
Just that the lack of cheap energy built/connected is a function of all of the obstacles put in the way of those projects. They get done in Texas more than other places that “put out a better virtue vibe”, but behind the scenes put up obstacles.
Its interesting how you can only talk positively about Texas by comparing it to others.
Can you answer this question without comparing Texas to any other state or entity: How is charging hundreds of dollars per kWh during storms in the best interests of the “regular electricity consumers”?
I recognize that failing, but afaiu, it applied to a limited number of customers who “gambled on variable rates”. The political leadership there also shit talks renewables, putting false blame on them for grid failures, but the actual operational environment still permits a lot of renewable expansion: The basis for calling their system the least corrupt.
near site solar + 4 hour batteries is quicker to build
But is it quicker at scale? Can solar and battery production keep up with expanding demand? Can it continue to do so over 10+ years? Can it outpace demand and start replacing fossil fuels?
Usually the proper solution is a mix of technologies. It shouldn’t be solar vs nuclear vs wind, but a mixture.
Nuclear does a great job at providing a large amount of energy consistently. It’s really bad at fluctuations in demand, and it’s also really bad at quick rollout. I think it makes a lot of sense to build nuclear in Texas over the long term because it can start filling in demand as efficiency of older panels and batteries drop off, which extends the useful life of those installations and reduces reliance on battery backups.
I also think hydrogen is an interesting option as well, since it’s sort of an alternative to batteries, which can be hard to get at scale. Use excess generation for electrolysis and use those for mobile energy use (e.g. trucks, forklifts, etc) or electricity generation. It’s also not ideal, but it could make sense as part of a broader grid setup.
Solar is awesome and we need more of it. I just want to encourage consideration of other options so we can attack energy production from multiple angles.
Can solar and battery production keep up with expanding demand?
China is expanding so fast that they are accused of overproducing, and so supply capacity is not only there, it can increase further.
Usually the proper solution is a mix of technologies. It shouldn’t be solar vs nuclear vs wind, but a mixture.
The main benefit of wind is in battery reduction. A capacity equal to lowest night demand. Wind often produces longer hours than solar per day. The predictability of solar allows clear power forecasts, and then enough solar for needs with a small grid connection allowing both monetizing surpluses, and having resilience in shortfalls. Nuclear has no economic or climate roles, for being both too expensive and of too long a delay.
I also think hydrogen is an interesting option as well, since it’s sort of an alternative to batteries,
Hydrogen is the solution for having unlimited renewables and being able to monetize all of their surpluses. It is a bonus to be able to provide emergency/peak power, including renting a vehicle to have bonus value of powering a building. For today, backup fossil fuel generators can still provide resilience value to solar.
For today, backup fossil fuel generators can still provide resilience value to solar.
And that’s the issue. Nuclear is an effective alternative to fossil fuels and can make sense in many areas. What you need is:
- lots of space for waste disposal
- prevent disruption from activist opponents (delays drive up costs)
- enough projects that you get economies of scale for construction (e.g. specialized crews can move from site to site)
- high enough base load demand to fully utilize nuclear
France has a ton of nuclear and it is on the cheaper end for electricity rates in Europe, and they’re not particularly well-suited for it.
It’s not a panacea, but it should absolutely be considered as a replacement for fossil fuels if energy demand is high enough.
Using existing infrastructure for backup/resilience as renewables are ramped up is the ideal. Was German last government’s approach. Cheaper (free) than even maintaining/refurbishing aging nuclear, allowing for private sector to expand renewables (also free). Standby payments to stay open and ready is cheap, and permits rapdid renewables to decrease their peaker use.
“Baseload” nuclear has the inverse problem of renewables. It needs to sell all of its very expensive power near 24/7. Costs being dominated by its initial building, means that half capacity is double the breakeven power revenue. Nuclear needs to suppress cheaper energy to be viable, and in the ultra optimistic (Vogtle took 20 years) 10 year buildout period, renewables must be suppressed so that when the ON switch is set, full power sales occur.
France has a ton of nuclear and it is on the cheaper end for electricity rates in Europe
France has understood that building new nuclear should wait until 2060s, when possible construction technology is advanced enough. The heyday of nuclear came when electricity demand was growing fast, and fears of available reserves and geopolitics affecting alternatives. Coal is also excessively polluting and dirty, in a locally displeasing way. The environment of alternatives is much different today.
“Baseload” nuclear has the inverse problem of renewables. It needs to sell all of its very expensive power near 24/7.
Excess nuclear production at night recharges batteries for daytime use, reducing the need for battery and solar rollout. Excess solar production during the day recharges batteries for nighttime use, reducing the need for baseload supply. Daytime use is higher than night time use, so this is pretty close to the ideal setup, no?
Use each non-polluting source for what it’s best at. You don’t need any one source to be the primary supplier of electricity, you want a diverse enough set that you get an optimal mix to keep costs and pollution low and reliability high. Mix in some wind and others for opportunistic, cheap generation.
Yes, both can charge batteries. Solar charges then at 10x less cost, and combined solar+batteries provides the same total “baseload function” at 2x-4x less cost, and can be up and running in 1 year instead of 10, and expanded the year after that. It’s even a myth that nuclear uses less land. You can use the land under solar, and you don’t need exclusion zones around reactors and uranium mines
It’s lower initial cost, sure, but what about longer term? Surely battery costs add up long term as they need to be expanded and replaced, making nuclear more attractive after 10-20 years.
I’m not an expert here though, I’m merely saying a lot of people would be fine with a higher initial investment if the long term benefits justify it.
The one state that refuses to connect to the interstate power grid and has Uber-like surge pricing on electricity? Yeah, I’m sure this won’t result in regular people footing the bill for more billionaire profits.
Texas is a joke, but not a good one.
Uber-like surge pricing on electricity
We don’t really: that story you heard from a few years ago was the only company that billed like that. The customers made a bet that the pricing averages through the day (lower at night, higher cost during the day) would average out in their favor over fixed-cost billing, and frankly, it did right up until it didn’t.
They took a risk and got bit by, frankly, not understanding how the system works and basically ate the spikes.
Everyone else paid $0.09/kwh or so during that whole period, and the electric providers ate the cost because when you’re averaging out spikes across millions of kwh, it won’t lead to bankruptcy.
They took a risk and got bit by, frankly, not understanding how the system works and basically ate the spikes.
It’s the exact same idea as insurance. You don’t buy insurance because you think you’ll take the insurance company for a ride, you buy insurance to even out your costs. If someone hits you, you don’t need to fork out tens of thousands of dollars for medical bills and repairs, but you will fork that out over time instead with more manageable payments.
If you don’t want to see scary bills, then pay a little higher average prices so you end up with a consistent bill.
Texas pays 11 dollars per kilowatt hour. Far lower than left wing states and has a manufacturing base. The market grid bids down prices for the right to sell electricity. That is one major reason companies move to Texas. Louisiana and Oklahoma, and states may be cheaper, but they don’t have a manufacturing base.
Every Texan I know has a generator to deal with the unreliability of the grid, and there’s never been an article about someone in Iowa getting a surprise $100k electric bill…and the average wage in Texas is substantially lower than in “left wing” states like California or Washington…so not sure you’re making an apples-to-apples comparison, but time will be the judge, we can all check-in in a year and see how this plays out. Does Lemmy have a remind me! bot?
Wanting to add that Washington, particularly Tacoma and other nearby counties are some of the only major cities whose power comes 100% from renewables.
Texan here. I don’t have a generator. Blackouts basically haven’t been a thing in my area since like 15 years ago, so it really depends on location. Also my electric bill works the same way as it would in any other state; the problem is when people buy electricity at what you might call “market price”: most of the time it’s cheaper, but you get fucked over sooner or later. It’s kind of like that story about people’s AC being controlled by the power company. They signed up for a program that explicitly set your AC higher during high-demand periods and then surprise Pikachu faced when the company did what they said they would do.
That said, our grid is still definitely trash (as are many other things here) and I’m desperately trying to move. Basically the only thing we’ve got going for us is the food is amazing.
They signed up for a program that explicitly set your AC higher during high-demand periods and then surprise Pikachu faced when the company did what they said they would do.
If the price swing between peak and off-peak is dramatic enough, I guess one could probably cool water during off-peak hours and then use a heat exchanger or something to use it to sink heat during peak hours.
https://home.howstuffworks.com/ac4.htm
Chilled water systems - In a chilled-water system, the entire air conditioner is installed on the roof or behind the building. It cools water to between 40 and 45 degrees Fahrenheit (4.4 and 7.2 degrees Celsius). The chilled water is then piped throughout the building and connected to air handlers. This can be a versatile system where the water pipes work like the evaporator coils in a standard air conditioner. If it’s well-insulated, there’s no practical distance limitation to the length of a chilled-water pipe.
That’s not intended to store energy, just transport it, but I’d imagine that all one would really need is that plus a sufficiently-large, insulated tank of water.
Every Texan I know
So none?
I lived in TX while I was stationed there for like 3 years. Exactly 0 people I’ve met there had a generator.
and the average wage in Texas
The cost of living is also significantly less.
California or Washington
Where it’s double my mortgage payment to have a 2 be apartment?
I lived in TX while I was stationed there for like 3 years. Exactly 0 people I’ve met there had a generator.
I think that it’s a good idea to have a generator in places that get serious storms, and coastal Texas can get hurricanes. I don’t think that this is something specific to Texas’ power generation, which is what I think the parent commenter is complaining about. Florida, which really gets whacked with hurricanes, is somewhere I’d really want to have a generator.
Texas is big. You have tornados in the north, hurricanes in the south, and a lot of nothin’ in the west. Some areas it makes sense to have a generator, but in many parts, it really doesn’t.
I don’t think that this is something specific to Texas’ power generation, which is what I think the parent commenter is complaining about.
I’d rather take their statement for what it literally was. Since that’s what they went out of their way to explain. And since you’re not them…
Very few Texans I knew (with the number being literally 0)… for years of living there. And myself during that time. Did not have a generator. That’s it. Short of them providing any actual evidence of their claim. It’s been dispelled. That’s it.
Should they have one? I don’t really care to comment deeply on that. I didn’t see a point to having one while I lived there. So I would assume most people would also come to the same conclusion.
California pays 19 dollars per kilowatt hour. Texas grid is better. Not only does Texas consume the most electricity, they do it at lower prices, comparable to poor states like New Mexico. Bidenomics subsidizes green energy at loss in the Texas grid.
not even close lol, having systemic blackouts randomly is not an indication of a good grid.
No dummy, you’re missing a decimal point. California only pays 19 CENTS per kwh.
And if conservative Texas is so great how come they pay 20% more per kwh for electricity than deep blue Washington State?
Everything’s bigger in Texas, especially the idiots & excuses.
Washington State?
Washing State has a ton of hydro, because they get a ton of rain in the mountains, thus near-constant hydro power supply. That really won’t work in Texas.
I live in Utah and we have pretty average prices (about $0.12-0.13/kWh), which is pretty decent considering we have a competitive amount of renewables and a similar lack of hydro options.
I grew up in WA and we had a lot of cool classes about the geography of the region, especially things like the Grand Coulee Dam. I even took my kids there to show how hydro works. We have dams here in UT, but they’re mostly to preserve water for the summer when we get almost no precipitation.
Deep blue Washington state has the advantage of giant amounts of hydroelectric generation combined with a relatively small population to consume it.
Washington has hydroelectric sources. 67 percent of its power is from hydro sources. Wind and solar are a tiny portion of its energy mix. Even nuclear power exceeds its wind and solar energy sources. Texas has proven it can scale energy sources the fastest. Texas has the most renewable energy in the US. It has the most solar and wind energy of any state. Washington isn’t a top manufacturing state. It can’t handle the demand load and Texas has the highest energy demand because it is a top manufacturing state. When you are dealing with energy intensive manufacturing, costs add up, go ask the Germans. The Texas grid is just better.
The Texas grid is just better.
As a Texan who has lost power, for weeks at a time, 4 times in the last 10 years, I disagree. I live near a major city and we lose power almost every time there’s strong wind, rain, or sub-freezing temps. Maybe you’re just lucky to live where you live? I’ve lived all over my city, and it’s surrounding suburbs, and it’s been pretty much the same everywhere.
California pays 19 dollars per kilowatt hour.
I think that you might be thinking cents, not dollars.
Typical residential electricity prices in the US are two digits number of cents per kWh.
Also, I’m pretty sure that California’s residential average price in 2025 is above $0.19/kWh. Maybe that’s the cost of generation alone or something.
EDIT: This has PG&E’s residential pricing at about twice that, unless someone’s getting low-income assistance.
They list their cost of generation there as being about $0.14/kWh.
Exactly. I have family in CA, WA, and I live in Utah, which is quite the gamut when it comes to electrical generation. CA is by far the most expensive, followed by UT (we’re pretty average), followed by WA (cheap due to tons of hydro). CA is expensive because their electricity policies are stupid IMO, UT is cheap because we’re somewhat reasonable (too much fossil fuels, but competitive renewables), and WA is cheap because they have more water than they know what to do with (ironically though, their water prices are higher than ours).
I don’t know much about Texas, but I imagine it’s similar to how things are here in UT, it just scales better since they have ~10x the population.
How many do they need in the winter, tho?
Yeah, build that many minus 10-20%, and fill in the rest with solar, wind, etc. That way you get a good mix of base level production and burst demand.
One of the windiest, sunniest, emptiest places on earth and they want to waste water building reactors instead of renewables.
Hell, the geology means you can store energy in the ground using pressurized air.
What? I’ve grown up around people in the nuclear industry, and nothing I’ve ever learned about the function “wastes” water.
Some rambling on how I understand water to be used by reactors
You’ve got some amount of water in the “dirty loop” exposed to the fissile material, and in the spent fuel storage tanks. Contaminated water is stuck for that use, but that isn’t “spending” the water. The water stays contained in those systems. They don’t magically delete water volume and need to be refilled.
Outside of that you have your clean loop, which is bog standard “use heat to make steam, steam move turbine, moving turbine make electiricity, steam cools back to water”. Again, there’s no part of that which somehow makes the water not exist, or not be usable for other purposes.
Not saying you’re wrong. Renewables are absolutely preferable, and Texas is prime real estate to maximize their effectiveness. I’m just hung up on the “waste water building reactors” part.
Guessing it was some sort of research about the building process maybe, that I’ve just missed?
How do you condense the steam back to water?
Building them doesn’t waste water, running them does. In a place with a lot of water they make sense but any industrial water usage in a place with limited water supplies - when there are lower usage alternatives - seems wasteful
They literally outlined the whole process… What stage in
Outside of that you have your clean loop, which is bog standard “use heat to make steam, steam move turbine, moving turbine make electiricity, steam cools back to water”. Again, there’s no part of that which somehow makes the water not exist, or not be usable for other purposes.
Wastes water?
steam cools back to water
That one. The most common methods of condensing that steam rely on large bodies of water acting as heat sinks. Water in those large reservoirs is lost to evaporation, which is exacerbated by the additional heat.
The water in that reservoir must be reserved for the nuclear plant; a drought that drains the reservoir will knock the plant offline.
Air-cooled condensers are possible, but at significantly reduced efficiency, especially in already hot environments.
If you send the water through a bunch of pipes it needs treated before it can be put back into the environment. This is true of any industrial process. This takes it out of circulation for a while, and in an arid state like Texas that’s a waste.
And reactors need a lot of water, which is why they’re built next to the ocean or a lake or something.
Why put water back in the environment at all if it’s needed to make steam again?
Because they use water for more than making steam. Much more water is used to cool the steam condensers and is often just dumped into the surrounding environment to cool off. Turkey Point in Florida has miles of canals that cool this water down.
If you don’t believe me, then listen to the IAEA who created a water management program for just this reason:
Countries in water scarce regions, and considering the introduction of nuclear power, may show concern on the requirement for securing water resources to operate nuclear power plants and search for strategies for efficient water management. Experience has shown that nuclear power plants are susceptible to prolonged drought conditions, forcing them to shut down reactors or reduce the output to a minimal level.
Thanks for the information.
Hmm harness the holy light of the sun?
But what about all that holy black ooze?
But what about all that unholy black ooze?
Demon blood made of 666 particles
So, exactly one uranium patch with a mk 3 miner stuffed full of slugs? Not including waste reprocessing or alternative recipes?
Seems satisfactory to me.
Sounds like Texas will be a nuclear waste dump soon.
Well, Texas certainly has the space for it.
Please! It would be such a nice improvement!
I want to get out of here :(
You and me both.
